Author Topic: Argus  (Read 16047 times)

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Offline Franz

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Argus
« on: March 23, 2011, 05:10:04 pm »
Several manufacturers have just released an advisory notice stating that they no longer approve the use of argus aads in their containers.

Some have actually stated that you must remove it from the container.

I feel this is an overreaction and will cause a lot of people serious expense and inconvenience,
 
This is pending aviacom investigating a problem reported by a customer somewhere in the US

At this time this is all the information I have. I will continue to press for answers.

Any information I have, I will post here.

Offline Flyerer

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Re: Argus
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 11:44:03 am »
So. Being someone who was uninformed enough about the industry to purchase an Argus, this is how I see my options.
 
1. Pull my AAD and go without one. (The option I'm most in favor of at this point).
2. Purchase a Cypress ( What I should have done in the first place, but I don't really want to invest another 1200.00 for Skydiving gear).
3. Leave the unit in place assuming that Argus must have some record of units performing the way they're supposed to.(I understand however that one of the Skydiving governing bodies may compel me to remove the device whether I want to or not).

Any serious advice is appreciated.

Lou
"Sunlight is the Best Disinfectant" Justice Louis Brandeis

Offline Franz

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Re: Argus
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 08:19:05 pm »
So. Being someone who was uninformed enough about the industry to purchase an Argus, this is how I see my options.
 
1. Pull my AAD and go without one. (The option I'm most in favor of at this point).
2. Purchase a Cypress ( What I should have done in the first place, but I don't really want to invest another 1200.00 for Skydiving gear).
3. Leave the unit in place assuming that Argus must have some record of units performing the way they're supposed to.(I understand however that one of the Skydiving governing bodies may compel me to remove the device whether I want to or not).

Any serious advice is appreciated.

Lou

Hey Lou,
I know we spoke on the phone but just wanted to address what you say about it being an uninformed decision to buy one. I think I would say it was more bad luck than anything else. The design and construction of the argus appear to be very good and there was no reason to believe that something like this would happen. Otherwise I wouldn't own 20 of them and use them in all my own personal rigs!  

This issue although one that should be taken seriously appears to be somewhat politically driven. There were better ways that this could have been dealt with. Vigil never had a ban put on their products because of  the misfires that occured and Cypres never had a ban put on their product because of Swooping fatalities.

There is apparently (I have not read it myself) and independent study of AAD cutters that has shown the cypres cutter to be just as capable of binding up.

Aviacom have not been able to respond to the cutter that released the loop on the ground because the people claiming it happend will not release the container and cutter in question to them for study.

Whilst Aviacom have not impressed me with their customer service in the past and probably haven't made many friends with their approach to things. I do not feel this to be appropriate unbiased action.

This ban has only hurt the customers and DZ operators. I am having to order $20K of new AADs if I want to stay in business.

To date I have seen Service bulletins regarding this from SUNPATH(Javelin), UPT (Vector) Rigging Innovations(Talon) and Mirage (G3.G4).

If you have an Icon or Wings for example you are as yet unaffected.

Hopefully this will have a rapid resolution. I will continue to keep you all updated.

In the mean time if anyone has decided to get a new AAD I have a limited quantity of VIGIL IIs and Cypresses coming next week to try and cope with this fiasco.

Offline Franz

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Re: Argus
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 08:21:02 pm »
Here is a response I received from Karel with Aviacom, the makers of the argus.

Hi Franz,

We are sincerely sorry for the inconvenience that the Argus ban may cause
you. We're not the victim of this decision. You all are.

The Argus is the most advanced, flexible and most compact AAD ever.
We are proud to have saved 24 lives till today.

As you know by now the Argus has been banned by RI, Mirage, Parachute
Systems, UPT and Sunpath due to a so called series of incidents.

We know that the decision to ban the Argus was taken well before the PIA
Symposium. It was just waiting for the 'right' timing to zoom in for the
kill. As in all crimes, look who's benefitting from it.

At this time San Marcos still refuses to release the affected unit.
Therefore, we can not investigate this incident and we cannot defend us. We
asked the FAA to help us in this matter.

Aviacom provided the PIA with all the cutter-testing results. To no avail.

There is not one reason the ground the Argus; there are three million
(3,000,000.00 USD) reasons of an instant replacement market that has been
created on behalf of PIA members. And we are not a member.

This is about politics and not about safety.

Banning the Argus is not going to improve safety.

And the ban effectively shuts down this company.

May we suggest that you contact the H/C manufacturers to review their
decision? It's the only solution on a short notice.

Thank you for your support through the years.

Kind regards,

Karel Goorts
Aviacom SA

P.S.: Argus # 1 207011 102269 has its 3rd Life-Save in  a Telesis from
Rigging Innovations

Offline Rhanold

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Re: Argus
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 11:01:10 pm »
Thanks for the info Franz.

Lou,
I don't think anyone saw this coming so it is not that you were uninformed about the industry. One thing you can do is contact your container manufacturer and ask them to describe the evidence that renders your gear unusable as is. You may not get very far but at least it will provide some pressure on the manufacturers to make a fair decision.

As for your choices, you are in a tough spot. You are not alone though. A lot of other people have to make the same decision you are looking at... hopefully you can talk to some of them and get some insight.

Offline Chrissy

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Re: Argus
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 11:13:20 pm »
As far as I can see Mirage has not issued a Service Bulletin yet.  I don't see anything on DZ.com, on the Mirage website or on Chutingstar's or Mirage's Facebook page....

Offline Rhanold

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Re: Argus
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 01:00:28 am »
As far as I can see Mirage has not issued a Service Bulletin yet.  I don't see anything on DZ.com, on the Mirage website or on Chutingstar's or Mirage's Facebook page....

There is a link to one on USPA's Website
http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/News/PSB03-11ARGUS.pdf

Offline Chrissy

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Re: Argus
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2011, 10:04:20 am »
As far as I can see Mirage has not issued a Service Bulletin yet.  I don't see anything on DZ.com, on the Mirage website or on Chutingstar's or Mirage's Facebook page....

There is a link to one on USPA's Website
http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/News/PSB03-11ARGUS.pdf

Thanks Ryan, that's the one place I didn't look  ;D

Offline Max

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Re: Argus
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2011, 04:48:25 pm »
I'd certainly rather jump with an argus than nothing at all.  But that means you're voiding the TSOs for your container and I'm not sure where that puts you from a legal stand point if you were in some sort of accident, argus involved or not.  Like I said though, I would much rather have an argus on my back than nothing, and it looks like there may not be much evidence against the argus anyway.

Offline Jordan

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Re: Argus
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 12:13:37 pm »
I read the PIA report from the Poland incident and I don't see anything in there that would make me not jump an Argus. As for the most recent incident in Texas, the DZ won't release the rig for Argus to inspect, or anyone else for that matter (from my understanding). So thus far, any evidence from that incident is basically heresay. This whole thing has really pissed me off.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 07:39:58 pm by Jordan »

Offline PETE

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Re: Argus
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2011, 01:23:53 pm »
Im dont have an Agrus but looking at the issue with it locking up the reserve, I personally would not jump it. I would pull it out and jump without one until there was a fix. I would not have any problems jumping without one but I know others that will. The requirements at our dropzone kind of make it hard on most of the new guys but, I would rather rent or not jump at all until it is cleared. Maybe if the minimums where lowered and you guys could keep jumping, but from me, dont jump with it. Just my opinion and Im not qualified to say anything, this is just what I would do.
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Offline Franz

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Re: Argus
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2011, 09:58:45 pm »
Im dont have an Agrus but looking at the issue with it locking up the reserve, I personally would not jump it. I would pull it out and jump without one until there was a fix. I would not have any problems jumping without one but I know others that will. The requirements at our dropzone kind of make it hard on most of the new guys but, I would rather rent or not jump at all until it is cleared. Maybe if the minimums where lowered and you guys could keep jumping, but from me, dont jump with it. Just my opinion and Im not qualified to say anything, this is just what I would do.

Here's the way I see it on that point Pete. As a sport jumper your AAD fires around 750ft. In the unlikely event that the aad did bind it took away maybe 2 seconds of opportunity to save your own life MAYBE!!!. Now I believe (personal opinion not proven) that this is caused more by rigger error - i.e slack closing loop, than aad failure. There has apparently been an independent study done on all cutters that showed a cypres cutter could do the same thing. The problem comes down to the fact that if the cutter is placed above the pack job it can bind and cause a container lock, if it were at the bottom of the tray it could not do this, worst case scenario is the aad does not do it's job rather than being in a position to lock the container if it fails. In short I believe having a good rigger and an AAD is a better way to go than ripping it out. The chances of an AAD saving you are far far higher (as has been proven at our DZ) than the chance of any of the models causing you a problem.

DISCLAIMER: The above is personal opinion based on gathered information and should not be taken as factual information.

Offline Garebear

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Re: Argus
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2011, 11:42:28 pm »
Kirk from ParaConcepts at SDC is on his way right now to Texas along with the FAA and they are going to confiscate the rig from the guy.. That's all the details I have.. Hopefully they'll figure everything out soon.
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Offline C.H.Risk

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Re: Argus
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2011, 06:40:58 pm »
As far as I can see Mirage has not issued a Service Bulletin yet.  I don't see anything on DZ.com, on the Mirage website or on Chutingstar's or Mirage's Facebook page....

There is a link to one on USPA's Website
http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/News/PSB03-11ARGUS.pdf

Thanks Ryan, that's the one place I didn't look  ;D

Cause, you know, why would they release that information in EVERY OTHER AVENUE they have available to get it out there?  Not that this is important or anything...

Kirk from ParaConcepts at SDC is on his way right now to Texas along with the FAA and they are going to confiscate the rig from the guy.. That's all the details I have.. Hopefully they'll figure everything out soon.

Any updates Garet?

Offline Garebear

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Re: Argus
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2011, 06:44:53 pm »
No updates yet.. I'll keep you posted if I hear anything more
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