Author Topic: Mid Season Review  (Read 9431 times)

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Offline Rhanold

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Mid Season Review
« on: July 15, 2008, 10:59:45 pm »
It has been brought up that we should have a mid season review for safety issues at our drop zone. I want your opinion on what should be covered and in what format. Comments???

Offline Sergey

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Mid Season Review
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 01:14:28 pm »
well the most recent case, which happened on Monday when one of our skydivers landed off the DZ... It took some time to determine who that person was... apparantly people don't count canopies in the air and don't care much who else is on board besides their particular group...

even when I told about off the DZ landing to STAFF members, nobody paid particular attention to that fact...

I think people should be more aware of who's in the air with them and what landing pattern they're following otherwise all sorts of terrible things can happen from off DZ landing injuries to canopy collisions etc...

And we only have a medium size plane (Caravan), only 14 people on it... and it's usually one plane at a time in the air... Consider the situation on DZs like Arizona, when they have loads going one after another every 5 min...

Offline AnKaLi

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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 01:54:45 pm »
not very cool to generalize like that.

anyways....I agree though, landing patterns and canopy work should be focused on. Maybe a little class like the one Paul had, going over basics. etc. as a general refresher...
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Offline wrappy

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Mid Season Review
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 10:13:06 pm »
Aircraft procedures.
Load/exit order from tandems with and without video through wingsuits.
Spotting - Prickett is great, but it is still the jumpers responsibility to look
Exit separation - more time is needed with low ground speed
Landing direction - everyone agree on a direction before leaving the plane

Offline Sergey

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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2008, 11:03:18 pm »
Quote from: "AnKaLi"
not very cool to generalize like that.

anyways....I agree though, landing patterns and canopy work should be focused on. Maybe a little class like the one Paul had, going over basics. etc. as a general refresher...


It won't be very cool, if someone lands hard off the DZ and will have to crowl back... because of ignorance... And I've seen this happen: winter of 2006, DZ Borki in Moscow, one of the jumpers got blown off the DZ and landed hard on trees, spinal compression, had to crowl on snow before locals found him, received frostbites too:(

Offline Sergey

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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2008, 11:05:43 pm »
Quote from: "wrappy"

Landing direction - everyone agree on a direction before leaving the plane


everyone agree on landing direction BEFORE boarding the plane:)

Offline Allison

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Mid Season Review
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 07:27:12 am »
I agree that we need to review landing procedures. Bram mentioned that he read all of our signs, followed the directions, and followed the pattern of a local jumper landing just before him, and still got a talking to about how he landed, though the jumper he followed in apparently did not. I didn't see the landings he was telling me about, but it's clear that there's some misunderstanding/inconsistency in the procedures.

Offline LAPaul

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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 09:02:40 am »
The landing rules make sense, but are a little confusing at first  because of the fact that the areas change with the wind...  Since the rules are slightly more complicated than "You always land here if you do a standard pattern", I think it becomes that much more important that we all abide by them on all non-182 loads.  

I think it was Adrienne who mentioned at safety day that it might be a good idea to put some sort of marker that is visible from the air as a reminder as to which area is which.  Maybe two pieces of plywood, one red and one green that can be put on either side of the white line.  I think we should all be able to land where we are supposed to on normal weekends, but a system like this might not be a bad idea for special event wekends when there is a higher number of non-locals at the dz. You could even put arrows on them so that they indicate the landing direction as well.

Also, the line indicates the edge of the landing area, not the target.  When I do my standard pattern, I land waaaaay short of the line, and if people are doing an HP landing, theres no reason to use the line as a swoop gate when it can be taken another 50 feet deeper.

Offline Sergey

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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 09:18:52 am »
Quote from: "Allison"
Bram mentioned that he read all of our signs, followed the directions, and followed the pattern of a local jumper landing just before him, and still got a talking to about how he landed, though the jumper he followed in apparently did not.

 
He parabably mentioned me:) But he wasn't following me, that's for sure:))) I was the last person on that load, doing  FF-solo following several groups from the coach class. General landing direction was South, Exit spot was in the West, so I was coming from far away from the West, approaching the buildings of the manifest and was slightly to the right, hanging on my rears to save precious altitude:) Setting up to practice 270 left-hand turn... At this point I noticed him flying above manifest building, he was goings South parallel to the airstrip and looking at the landing area, I thought he didn't see me. So we were on colliding courses!!! If I was to start 270 and turn to the left, I might've faced him right in the middle of my turn... So I had to abandon 270 and landed after 90 turn, I simply didn't have enough altitude for waiting... After landing I asked him if saw me and he said yes. And that was it.
I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just had the impression that he was going to land in the hight performance area, because he was very close to the line.

Offline PETE

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Mid Season Review
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 11:19:55 am »
I am thinking we should do a complete from the time you park to the time you pack your gear after landing review. First thing is people flying into the parking lot at 100 mph to flying into the wrong landing area at 100 mph. Just a general refresher to get the regulars on the right page so when the visitors come we can give them a correct answer to what they need to know. I see all kinds of stuff that we all should know and we don't. More me, it is checking the spot and separation. Last weekend the GPS was not working and nobody had a clue where the spot was. We got spoiled with the big planes and we forgot the simple stuff. The landing thing will be an issue unless we do mark off the areas. People are like cattle and need to be lead with a stick.
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Offline Evan

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Mid Season Review
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 11:30:30 am »
Quote from: "wrappy"
Aircraft procedures.
Load/exit order from tandems with and without video through wingsuits.
Spotting - Prickett is great, but it is still the jumpers responsibility to look
Exit separation - more time is needed with low ground speed
Landing direction - everyone agree on a direction before leaving the plane


Back at Safety Day, there was some talk of posting exit order and exit separation guidelines in the plane.  I think this is still a good idea...

Here are a couple of good articles about exit order & separation:

Exit Separation Revisited by Bill von Novak
Wind Drift and Fall Rates Revisited by Tim Wagner

Go to the second article and click Continue on the flash image for a good example of what can happen if you put a slower faller (ie. belly flyer) out right after a faster faller (ie. freeflyer).  I think this can help people get a better understanding of freefall drift and why exit order is so important.

Here is an exit separation chart that someone posted on dropzone.com that could be laminated and posted by the door of the plane.  Here is the Excel version in case someone wants to edit it.

Offline Foster

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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 01:36:28 pm »
I would like to discuss setting a pattern direction at least for the standard canopy flyers.  

Whatever we need to do to correct these issues needs to be done now while we have a max of 13 canopys in the air at a time so that when we have 24 in the air we wont have any issues.

Offline LAPaul

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Mid Season Review
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2008, 01:48:52 pm »
Quote from: "Foster"
I would like to discuss setting a pattern direction at least for the standard canopy flyers.  

Whatever we need to do to correct these issues needs to be done now while we have a max of 13 canopys in the air at a time so that when we have 24 in the air we wont have any issues.


So if you're not supposed to be over a runway below a grand, it seems to me that landing a right-hand headed south, or a left-hand headed north makes sense.  Otherwise you would have to be over or just at the end of a runway below a grand, right?  Basically keeping all patterns to the west of the N/S runway.

Offline Foster

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Mid Season Review
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2008, 03:42:32 pm »
Quote from: "detroitpaul"
Quote from: "Foster"
I would like to discuss setting a pattern direction at least for the standard canopy flyers.  

Whatever we need to do to correct these issues needs to be done now while we have a max of 13 canopys in the air at a time so that when we have 24 in the air we wont have any issues.


So if you're not supposed to be over a runway below a grand, it seems to me that landing a right-hand headed south, or a left-hand headed north makes sense.  Otherwise you would have to be over or just at the end of a runway below a grand, right?  Basically keeping all patterns to the west of the N/S runway.


Yup...  I cant count the amount of times I've had another canopy coming directly at me flying an opposing pattern and crossing the runway somewhere in the 600-300 feet range.  

With the skyvan supposedly turning 15 minute loads and being able to fall out of the sky so quickly it means we will be landing at the same time as the plane on every load.  Crossing the runway below 1000ft is something that will need to be addressed heavily because I have seen it, again, more times than I can count this season.

Offline AnKaLi

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Mid Season Review
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2008, 03:48:13 pm »
I'll admit, I could use a definite review with spotting, especially with the caravan...
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